Right or wrong that is my take and I acknowledge there will be short bursts where they trade well as appears to be going on now.
Something occurred to me though as I was answering the question. Does it ever make sense to buy a stock if you believe the fundamentals stink? And if so when? Everyone has their own way of doing things and my way is to not buy things that have no fundamental justification or I should say not buy things where I perceive there is no fundamental justification.What about people who buy distressed companies? There have always been investors who have bought into companies when things look very bleak and had success in doing so. The ideas here appear to include that something that was once great can be great again with the right management or that there is something there to be salvaged, again by the right management and so one way to think of this is a bet that somehow someway the business can be restored even if it is not clear how or when.
I'm not knocking that, some people have great success with this (repeated for emphasis) but it is not something I'm comfortable doing and to be clear, what I have in mind here is not a stock that is merely down in price but where something fundamental has changed or appears to have changed truly distressing the asset. Sears (SHLD) might be a current example of this. Sears appeared to be on the way down, then Eddie Lampert breathed some life into it (or at least he appeared to deserve credit for this) and now it appears to be waning again.
We have a Sears where I live. We went in one time when we needed a refrigerator a while ago and they were not competitive on price (as a personal belief I think price matching is a sham; we'll charge you this but if you can find it cheaper will give it to you for that price?). Our Sears is very close to our house and so I go by it on occasion (our Fire Department does driving training in their parking lot) and any time I go by it is always easy to get a parking spot very close to the door. We also have a K-Mart here which I've never been in.
Given the history of the brand and where some of the locations are I could easily see where someone could make a convincing turn around argument of some sort, even if the stores in Prescott have to be closed, and either that argument would be right or not. This is a valid way to invest but not my way. Is this your way to invest?This post is really about knowing yourself. Investors have always had success with every form of investing imaginable. Buy high-buy low, buy and hold-actively trade, indexing-stock picking, dividend strategies-momentum strategies; the choices are endless and they all can succeed. They also can all fail.
I believe the utility of investing blogs is about taking bits of process from many sources to create or improve your own process. I think too many people don't know what type of investor they should be which often leads to poor results and sometimes catastrophe. This is an important thing for people to figure out for themselves.
Finally a couple of more pictures from the CHL All Star Game in Prescott Valley on Wednesday night. These were with the "good" camera, yesterday's pictures were with my phone. The first one I think I caught a kick save by the Sun Dogs goalie and if anyone could get an artistic picture at a hockey game, Joellyn could--the second one is hers.





12 comments:
Great question and I believe the answer is summed by asking a retort: are you a speculator or an investor? Speculating on BAC (insert any beaten down company here) movements is much different than buying because you may believe they have turned the corner. Both trades could be spectacular or total failures, but understanding why you made the trade is key. Over the years I've made several speculative trades that turned into solid investments (AAPL is my favorite story). Also, have experienced the other side of that trade too (CROX comes to mind - not sure what I was thinking!)
rubber shoes, they were like magic! we were repulsed but couldn't look away
So Roger other then MSCI are you avoiding all things financial?
practically speaking its all speculation.
I do think this points out the benefit of manager diversification. One manager can't be an expert at all strategies. For the right clients risk return profile, having some portion of your portfolio in a distressed strategy can provide significant investment benefits (and significant investment risks). thankfully more managers with unique investment skills are available via packaged solutions (mutual funds and ETFs), so it makes it much easier for an RIA to incorporate another managers strategy to add to their clients diversification.
7:02, two weeks ago I disclosed that we bought ASX Limited and I've been writing about own the same Canadian bank and same Chilean bank for years.
Pardon the promotionalism, but I've recently done pieces on a couple of things that might be of interest given the discussion.
I study and consult for investment firms, and I did a posting that asserted that how investment firms are approaching the financials is one tremendous tell right now, which indicates the kind of investors they are.
And, given the talk of "rubber shoes," here's a look back at the fads of CROX, the company and the stock.
Good post today Roger but would like to add.
I never buy anything without a hard look at management. To me it is the key as to whether any company will survive and prosper.
To wit: Sears Holdings. Eddie put Sears/Kmart together as a real estate play. he had no background for retailing, he also obviously had no background in hiring competency and worst of all, he was a micro manager. Put it all together and the only sense it made was as a real estate play and we could all plainly see how that was going to end. IHMO, of course.
Yes, management is a big deal!
anon 9:38,
ah yes, another rear view mirror driver.
You've got to be kidding me.
You wrote,
"Something occurred to me though as I was answering the question. Does it ever make sense to buy a stock if you believe the fundamentals stink? And if so when?"
ARGHH! Have you forgotten how many times I've attempted to broach that subject with you in these comments? I must be a glutten for punishment... why else would I bang my head against the wall with you? I guess it's because I like your blog even though I think there's a major hole in your investment approach.
The answer to your question is: yes, it does sometimes make sense to buy a stock if you believe the fundamentals stink. When? If the price is significantly lower than a conservative estimate of Intrinsic Value. What's Intrinsic Value? Here's a definition from Warren Buffett:
"Intrinsic value can be defined simply: It is the discounted value of the cash that can be taken out of a business during its remaining life."
Note: a company or country whose fundamentals stink usually has an Intrinsic Value greater than zero. Therefore, there is always *some* price at which a company/country's stock/stock market is a good investment even though the fundamentals stink. That's why I keep trying to tell you that your blanket advice to underweight companies/countries with bad fundamentals and overweight companies/countries with good fundamentals is too simple. You're ignoring the comparison between Price and Intrinsic Value, and that's too important to ignore.
- aagold
aagold:
Didn't Buffet move away from that approach? I believe they (Graham and Dodd) referred to it as the cigarette butt investing style, and moved to wide moats, good management, and opportunistic pricing when possible?
Happy New Year,
Sam
Pretty sure I've been consistent in saying your preference is not right for me and this is why.
I think I've also been consistent in saying anything can work but that does not mean that a person should invest with a strategy they don't believe in.
I've spent a fair bit of time in the comments saying why I don't believe in deep value in this context but I don't think I ever tried to convince you that you shouldn't invest that way.
Roger:
Yes, I guess you have explained in the past that my preference is not right for you. It was probably just your wording ("Something occurred to me though as I was answering the question. Does it ever make sense to buy a stock if you believe the fundamentals stink? And if so when?") that got to me. You make it sound like this thought "just occurred to you", even though I've been (unsuccessfully) attempting to engage you in a conversation on this topic for quite a while and you've never seemed interested. But maybe I just misinterpreted... maybe the fact that you wrote the post in the first place is evidence that what I've written in these comments has caused you to think about this topic a little bit.
Sam:
Yes, it's true that Buffett has moved away from deep value investing over the years. That's partially due to necessity - he just has too much capital to deploy at this point. But even his more recent investing style is crucially dependent on a comparison between current price and Intrinsic Value. He would never invest in a company just because it has a wide moat and significant growth potential; it would have to be available at the right price as well, and that requires an evaluation of the company's Intrinsic Value (which would be much higher, of course, than that of a similarly sized company with no moat and no growth).
- aagold
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