Wikinvest Wire

Monday, March 07, 2011

Ok, But The Math Doesn't Work

A year or two ago I reconnected with a friend from highschool on Facebook. He has turned out to be extremely liberal in his political thinking and regularly posts links and status updates consistent with his beliefs. He has been very pro-union in some of his posts and has been keenly interested in the goings on in Wisconsin these days despite living in another state. He feels very strongly about his beliefs to the point I would say of being entrenched.

This week's John Mauldin post devoted some space to the various entitlement issues and the notion of congress figuring out how to cut $61 billion in expenses versus a $1.6 trillion problem. As I read this and thought about my friend's posts I had a moment of clarity or perhaps better stated as a moment of simplicity which is that for so many of the country's problems the math doesn't work.

All of the reasons that someone might be pro-union might be 100% correct but the math doesn't work. Cutting $61 billion is expenses might be a win of some sort but in the full context of the problem does not itself represent any progress toward a solution. The retirement savings quandary that now exists (referring to the ridiculously low average savings that people have) can be thought of in one way as not understanding the math needed to make it work.

To the union issue, that there is not enough money for workers to get everything they have previously bargained for, that return assumptions are way too high and that the unions have dirty hands (as well as management) in the failures that have occurred would, I believe, be a conversation that my friend could not hear. If union leaders negotiated some sort of dollar figure 15 years ago (making up an example) that has proven out to be wildly unsustainable what should happen? I am not intending to make a political argument here. I can't say that a union doesn't deserve something they successfully negotiated for but if the math doesn't work then that means the math doesn't work.

In simplistic terms the math appears to be breaking down with all sorts of different things which makes debating these things along political or ideological lines futile. An analogy that is related to our fire department; for several years the community has been having a heated debate about whether or not to become a fire district (an entity with taxing authority) or remain donation based. One bone of contention is how much of a tax would be imposed. Related to the potential tax is what sort of service the community wants. On bit of advice that has been pretty consistent along these lines has been not to ask what service is wanted but how much people want to pay. We can have everything but the more service (really I mean paid personnel and new equipment) the more we will all pay. It is quite simple in that regard.

Well, we can have all the medicare, social security and union benefits we want. It's just that the more we want the more we will have to pay. I'm not arguing for more taxes from a belief standpoint, simply pointing out that there is a deficiency that exists. We either pay more or we get less. To the extent this holds water for you it argues all the more for staying on your own mat (self sufficiency). For me this means saving a lot, living below my means and having a job that I want to keep well past typical retirement age. For you, self sufficient could mean something completely different but either way we cannot rely on other people to get the math right, we need make sure that if nothing else our own math works.

28 comments:

Anonymous said...

I disagree. The math does work if tax policy recognizes that the well off should pay a much larger share of the tax burden. Also it works with out two foreign wars to pay for. It works when welfare for the rich -agricultural programs for mega corporations, depletion allowances, second home deductions , on and on. Cuts to the real programs that sop up revenues defense, social security, medicare. It amazes me that when things get tough we try to get out of the whole that our tax policy has created on the back of the poor which are basically defenseless. Also its amazing that we are cutting educational programs. What is more important to our society than educating our population. where would many of the well off be without the benefits they received from public education. OUr great experiment is failing under the weight of we want but wont pay for benefits,

Anonymous said...

People do not understand the math. My sister would buy purses that cost hundreds of dollars because it only cost her 5 or $10 a month on her credit card. The credit card bill soared to $30k+ and she still did not get the math because the card still worked. It was only after the card stopped working and she had to pay daily expenses plus the collection agencies that she understood the math.

Obama is burning through 1.6 trillion a year in debt and could care less about the math. One day down the road no one will want treasuries. Until the ultimate pain comes the US will continue to dig this debt hell for our children. No one will admit to the debt problem until it is to late.

Roger Nusbaum said...

anon 6:59,

you appear to be saying the math will work once we fix it.

Anonymous said...

"you appear to be saying the math will work once we fix it."

We will never fix it, but we will be in a fix in a few years

Anonymous said...

I dislike generalities. Be specific. Assuming 1.6 Trillion needs to be covered. How much per gallon would the gas tax have to be raised to cover that amount? Or how many percentage points would everyone's income tax rates need to increase to cover that amount? Forget the "rich" only, which is defined as anyone who makes more than you.

Roger Nusbaum said...

why don't you be specific?

Anonymous said...

Based on using 177 billion gallons of gas & diesel, we only need a $9 gas tax. We need to cut oil usage anyway.

Based on collection $1.031 billion in personal income taxes, a 55% increase in rates would do it (assuming the politicians didn't spend the extra money).

Anonymous said...

Watched small portions of a couple of democrats, Durban and Kerry, being interviewed on Fox yesterday. From the few minutes I heard, it is obvious that those 2 democrats, and Obama from previous declarations, are not serious about cutting spending. When asked what they would cut, the 2 democrat senators totally ignored the question and proceeded to demagogue the republicans' proposals; with examples such as how terrible it will be when a few school teachers or policemen are laid off, or how some deserving young person will not get a loan to pay for his/her college expenses. Likewise, Obama has offered zero specific cut recommendations and, also likewise, will respond to specific republican proposals with demagoguery. Real progress toward undoing the excesses of the last 2 years, and 2 decades, will not come until after Obama is gone (hopefully Jan 2013). Until then, holding the line is about all that can be reasonably expected.

Anonymous said...

Anon. 06:59 nails it hands down. "I have nothing to add".

Mike C said...

Judging from some of these comments, it seems many are oblivious to the math.

I think Taleb is early but absolutely right about being short U.S. Treasuries. In my mind, it is only a question of when not it.

I have zero power to change any of this craziness, but hopefully I can make some money for myself off our collective stupidity as a society.

RW said...

Speaking as a person who understands and uses math extensively, the math works quite well when everyone signs on to paygo. Unfortunately there is one political persuasion that categorically refuses, the post-Reagan Republicans; e.g., http://tinyurl.com/4vrkqog

Taking this lack of fiscal responsibility out of the hides of those with the least political clout is politics as usual and now that corporations appear to have the rights of citizens in addition to limited liability granted by government that goes double; no gotta the payola, no getta the play time, eh.

PS: It continues to astonish me that those who argued contracts (including bonuses) were inviolable, even among those in failed institutions who benefited from the $700+ billion dollar Bush/Paulson bailouts, now consider it appropriate to violate contracts made with union workers and those who paid into benefit plans (I assume folks are aware that those plans are funded by deferred worker pay, not directly by the tax payer).

Mike C said...

Speaking as a person who understands and uses math extensively, the math works quite well when everyone signs on to paygo.

What do you mean by this? Can you expand with specificity here?

now consider it appropriate to violate contracts made with union workers and those who paid into benefit plans (I assume folks are aware that those plans are funded by deferred worker pay, not directly by the tax payer).

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the problem in many of these cases that what was paid in was not sufficient to cover benefits absent the 10%ish return these plans all counted on.

Isn't that what the Wisconsin thing is basically about. That the "pay-in" has to be somewhat higher to cover the "pay-out".

I know you are a sharp guy so I'm willing to accept maybe I'm wrong here and you are right, but at the end of the day how do 60 million GenX'ers pay the promised benefits for 100 million baby boomers?

RW said...

@Mike C: Paygo means a bill doesn't pass unless it has clearly identified funding whether that be a tax, cuts in other programs, user fees, or what have you. As the article I linked to points out, there really is only one party that can be identified as attempting paygo.

As to the various state benefit plans, I have no expertise in how those plans were managed after they were paid into so I can't speak to their ability to meet contractual obligations but am inclined to believe it was more a mismanagement issue than anything else.

At the federal level it is only Medicare/Medicaid that is in serious trouble and the ACA (health reform act) deals with that fairly well even if not as effectively as single payer.

I don't really have a major axe to grind about a lot of this stuff frankly -- my family is fully covered in all respects (and I do mean all) -- but logical inconsistency and moral laxity are irritating: With the sole exception of GM, this entire crisis has not only given top management a bye it has filled their pockets at the expense of those who could ill afford it. That kind of cr*p has got to stop.

Anonymous said...

Its not union pay that is causing the deficts. My brothres schol teathet salary is irrelenat to what is at hand here. It's tax cuts while at the same time we are subsidizing the well off among us. Union pay issue is a red herring used by politicans to not face the real issues and to futher detroy the middle class so the rich can have a population that can be easily manipulated.

Anonymous said...

It's interesting, the pension benefits in public employee union contracts were typically agreed to by politicians 1 to 3 decades ago who are no longer in office. Their out-years when all the payouts are to be made are now or in the near future. I am not a scholar, but I believe it in the Constitution, that the son cannot be punished for the crimes of the father. Is that not exactly what the public employee union contracts are doing; attempting to force the sons (today's tax payers) to pay for benefits contained in the ill thought out and poorly executed agreements made by the fathers (yesterday's politicians)? Of course it is. The bills are due, or soon will be, and there is insufficient money in the piggy to make full payments. The time for kicking the can down the road is past and the day of reckoning has arrived, somewhat like the credit card company cutting off your ability to charge more but you are still on the hook to pay for past spending and accumulated interest. The unions, like the credit card company, made a bad deal; either agree to reduced payments or risk default/bankruptcy on the part of the payers.

Mike C said...

Well.....at least to me...interesting set of back and forth comments that I think are a microcosm of the societal debate. Everyone wants to focus/drill down on a particular line item or program or tax either on the raising revenue or program side, and say it would just be affordable if we do A or X while I tend to think you have to zoom up to the aggregate level and realize in aggregate it simply isn't unaffordable which means we are back to Roger's main point that the Math doesn't add up. Collectively, the total revenue simply don't match the outlays. A 1.6 trillion deficit would seem to be prima facie evidence of this, but quickly the discussion devolves to program A and which tax could be tweaked to make it "work" and forget about the totality of the equation.

All I know is we are f'ed. Seems to me there is absolutely no will whatsoever either at the political leader level or the regular citizen level to face up to the tough decisions that need to be made. Everyone can play the victim card...what about the teachers, what about the kids,etc. The next 10 years will be interesting.

Anonymous said...

This link provides a very pertinent big picture view of the topic being discussed today:

http://biggovernment.com/bwhittle/2011/03/06/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-public-sector-unions/

RW said...

[lol] And everyone wants to stop counting when they think their original point has been made.

What did John Kenneth Galbraith say? "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."

Widen the lens more and ask the next logical question: There's a deficit and, more to the point, an accumulating national debt built up from previous deficits; now how does one get into that situation?

There is only one answer: Buying stuff you haven't budgeted for each year and, again more to the point, doing so year after year instead of paying off what you borrowed before.

The existence of a deficit and growing year over year debt is not an explanation, it is an outcome, a fact. Attempting to remove that fact by current budget cuts alone, assuming that can be done (which it can't but it is an excellent excuse to kill programs you don't care for), is not an explanation, it is just another outcome, a fact.

Paygo was in operation during the Clinton presidency with predictable results: Yearly deficits disappeared and national debt shrank. Note that I do not accept there was a budget surplus because what is being cited is the so-called unified budget which includes fully solvent trust accounts such as Social Security; remove those and the deficit increased under Clinton by about $96 billion ending in a national debt of $5.629 trillion total.

Paygo was completely abandoned during the G.W. Bush presidency again with predictable results: Deficits quintupled year over year and the national debt ballooned, ending with a total US debt of about $11.9 Trillion.

Those who have an alternate explanation for the facts in evidence are welcome to trot it out. I have offered mine, FWIW.

NB: Paygo was re-instituted under Obama but with a country in full economic crisis and a $1.3 Trillion deficit for 2009 inherited from the Bush administration (new presidents do not set their first budget) it's unlikely we'll see any significant reduction in debt for some years although the rate of increase has declined. Yeah, scant comfort when you're talking about a $3.7 trillion budget for 2012 that includes a projected deficit of $1 trillion (only $300 billion less than the budget Obama inherited from Bush) but there it is. Congress-critters might be able to scrape another $60-70 billion out on the backs of workers and the poor by cutting spending on various programs but, as I've noted before, I believe that is logically vapid, morally questionable, and ultimately self-defeating in a country whose economy relies heavily upon consumption.

Apologies for the screed: logical inconsistency and moral laxity do irritate I'm afraid; no offense intended, guess I was due for a semi-rant.

RW said...

Ach! Meant to say "Yearly deficits virtually disappeared and national debt shrank" in the above.

Obvious since the next sentence argues that Clinton was still deficit spending but, still, silly. Comes from writing too fast.

RW said...

Ach! Ach! "...debt shrank as a % of GDP.
[shades of Mars Attacks!]

Okay, bugger this, I'm off: Got some hedges to trim.

Anonymous said...

I have been playing with turbo tax to check "what if" tax consequences to a mostly taxable portfolio and earned income <$25k. TT says that even with >$200k income from all sources, there will be no federal income tax.

Just saying.

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:38. Trying to comprehend your point. Could you identify the sources of the additional $175k and the deductions you are taking? Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Income from from tax exempt bonds, qualified dividends, and cap gains. 15% bracket or less, no taxes on dividends, cap gains.

I'm not sure what the point is except I was shocked to see that someone can earn that much and not pay at least something. But TT says it is so.

Anonymous said...

Roger, I have some liberal, indeed even far left, frisnds and relatives. I tried joking about the entire political spectrum, but I have found the left has a pretty pathetic sense of humor unless it is directed at the right.

At the end, we continued strong friendships by acknowleging that we have one vote each (unless they are my Democratic friends in Chicago) and have lots of other stuff in common to talk about.

When visiting at our home, rocking on the outdoor porch overlooking a serene pond surrounded by wonderful waterfowl, sipping a Glenlivet and enjoying a great Cuban cigar can reduce the most ardent socialist to laughing at the vagaries of life as we let the smoke waft upwards into the vivid blue Carolina sky.

T

Anonymous said...

I recall an economics professor once making an argument that the national debt was a bill that never had to be paid. I did not buy the argument then, and, unfortunately, do not recall his points. I suppose it was along the lines of paying off maturing bonds with money derived from selling new ones. OK, except the gov't is also extending the servicing charges forever, and maybe even that would be feasible if the amount of interest being paid grows at a rate slower than the growth of GDP and tax receipts. I think the professor did not envision the explosion of gov't debt we have recently experienced. Maybe if the gov't can slow the growth of the debt to a level that is less than the growth of GDP and tax receipts, we could be OK.

Stephen Drone said...

wow, a lot of comments today!

"Its not union pay that is causing the deficts. My brothres schol teathet salary is irrelenat to what is at hand here. It's tax cuts while at the same time we are subsidizing the well off among us."

My problem is, I just don't know how to counteract crap like this. I'm not talking about the union comment. I'm talking about the comment about the tax cuts/subsidizing comment.

I had a Facebook "debate" with a guy over an article concerning WI benefits. A friend had posted the article, and the discussion was about whether benefits were ON TOP OF the salary, or WI was taking the benefit money OUT OF teacher salaries. What no one was commenting on was the fact that the ONLY thing funding the pensions/benefits was the 5% contributed by the teachers. WI is not putting ANY money into the pension. So, it's a ponzi scheme. You can't contribute 5% a year and expect to draw full salary during retirement.

But no one looks at the math.

Kirk Kinder said...

First, we are no longer discussing an issue dictated by one's political leanings or economic school of thought. It doesn't matter if you are Democrat, Republican or Libertarian. It doesn't matter if you are a Keynesian, Monetarist or Austrian economist. We are dealing with the law of mathematics. And, it ain't pretty.

As far as promised benefits, both my parents are retired school teachers with pensions. I hear them, as well as others with pensions, talk about their promised benefits. I usually ask these people who promised them these benefits. They reply the taxpayers. I then ask who speaks for the taxpayer to which they reply the politicians. I finish with "you got a promise from a politician and you believed it." That usually shuts people up, and they understand that promise isn't worth squat.

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:23 said

I have been playing with turbo tax to check "what if" tax consequences to a mostly taxable portfolio and earned income <$25k. TT says that even with >$200k income from all sources, there will be no federal income tax.



I have completed my 2010 tax return with
Turbotax. The following are actual figures
from Turbotax:

2010 | Adjusted Gross Income $ 226,908.00
Federal | Taxable Income $ 216,458.00
Tax | Total Tax $ 52,866.00
Return | Total Payments/Credits $ 19,345.00
Summary | Payment Due $ 33,521.00

The Federal tax includes $4,915 Alternative minimum tax. The income is roughly 1/2 investment income, 1/2 IRA distribution.

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