Wikinvest Wire

Friday, August 27, 2010

Solving Our Own (Spending) Problems

Yesterday I had a quick but interesting chat with an acquaintance about spending in retirement and the issue that too many people have with spending beyond their means. In the conversation I think I hit on a couple of things that could be useful for people who grapple with this issue.

Take a retired person with an expensive hobby like car restoration, that is buying something old and or sentimental and doing whatever is needed to make it look like new. This could include replacing a lot of the moving parts, the interior and painting the car. This is a labor of love that can be expensive. This same retired person might have a retirement portfolio that provides some portion of their income along with social security. Depending on their involvement in their portfolio they might be aware of the fluctuations of their portfolio and get nervous when it goes down.

If our car restoring enthusiast retired making $10,000 per month they would have been making a fine living but would not necessarily be rich (eye of the beholder on that number). That sort of income probably means the person is living $6500 lifestyle in that maybe about $2000 goes to state and federal taxes and maybe $1000-$1500 to savings. If the numbers in this example are reasonable and this person is collecting $2000/mo from social security then the portfolio needs to have $1.35 million to have a 4% withdrawal rate cover the $4500 per month (taxes in retirement could complicate the numbers but still) , assuming our active hobbyist wants the exact same lifestyle dollar wise.

So this person either has that much or he doesn't. To have the best chance of having enough money the withdrawal rate should be 1% per quarter or less, the further the person goes above that 1% per quarter the more risk of running out of money. If our hobbyist still has a mortgage (more and more retirees do these days) then $6500 might be a nice lifestyle but it is not a lot of money and the restoration projects loom large for this person.

The thing I stumbled upon in my conversation yesterday is that a person in the above situation needs to have their own moment of clarity on their hobby or whatever anyone spends money on beyond the basics. Advisors or concerned family members or whoever else can try but it is very difficult to get through. Perhaps this is obvious but the way it came out as I was saying it was new to me and I think very important. Generally there is a mismatch between what we have saved and what we need to live on in retirement and cover the one-offs that seem to come every month not to mention hobbies like car restoration or buying an RV or an Indian Motorcycle.

People running out of money is certainly nothing new but I think it is reassuring in a way that difficult though it may be a self imposed austerity can be a difference maker in the success or failure of a financial plan. Being in the position to decide to spend less on Civil War reenactment (to pick another example of a hobby that might cost money) of course presumes that there was retirement saving during the working years and there is enough saved to have some shot at a workable plan.

Some of the average 401k balances that are reported (they all seem to be less than $100,000) are not really enough for a retirement plan. Even $200,000 comes far short as $8000 is not a workable number for most folks. But people who made the necessary decisions early on to try to save properly can be in a position to make decisions as opposed to having their circumstance dictate everything.

Someone who needs $700,000 to make their plan work the way they would like but who only has $600,000 is probably in a position to decide what is sacrificed and what stays in the lifestyle. One way where people get in trouble in this sort of scenario is when they think $600,000 makes them rich. It sound like a lot of money alright but using the 4% rule it generates $24,000 per year.

Another part of the thought process here for the spender which came from this conversation is that there are three variables here; the portfolio, the market and personal spending habits. Of those variables what do you have the most control over? Clearly the third one--the context here is spending habits, getting sick or the like is certainly something people need to prepare for but is a different context. So although it can be very difficult, some discipline where discretionary spending is concerned (obvious comment) can be a difference maker but to repeat from above the spender needs to come to this on their own. To apply a generic bit of wisdom from our friend Bill; you can figure it out now or you can figure it out later but if you can figure it out now you'll be much better off.

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

My A/C unit went out 2 days ago....cost was $800 for a service call and repair during off hours. You never know what expenses may arise! Can really be a crimp in your retirement.

Roger Nusbaum said...

that is a perfect example.

what if next month you need tires for your car and the month after you need something else. the one-offs never end.

Anonymous said...

Roger, this post hit close to home, I own 3 cars, two of which could be considered "classics", the other is just old, lol. I try to justify the expense by saying I can drive them but of course not at the same time. Still, one fewer car would ease the burden and I would still have transportation.

Keep the great posts coming!

Mark from L-Ville

Roger Nusbaum said...

TY Mark

reiredinprescott said...

Roger,
Your comments about expensive hobbies and the classic cars made me want to post how I funded much of my current retirement lifestyle with my previous hobbies. During my 30 year working career I collected and restored (not all simultaneously) antique horn type phonographs, 1920s high end reproducing pianos, early tube type radios and finally, early British Sportscars. I put a lot of sweat equity into all of these hobbies as I enjoyed the restoration process. About two years before I was going to retire I started selling off all of my accumulated hobby items. It amounted to quite a bit of money and really helped fund my retirement so far. I made the painful and conscious decision that I needed to have liquid , investable assets in retirement rather than a lot of gorgeous but not very productive hobby items in retirement. I still restore and collect antique radios but on a much smaller scale now. You've got to stay active in retirement.
This may not work for everyone but it sure has made retirement easier and more pleasant for me.

Roger Nusbaum said...

maybe i am misreading you but it seems like you are saying you came to your conclusion on your own--key ingredient to success

reiredinprescott said...

Yes Roger, I sold my hobby collections to help fund my retirement about twelve years ago before financial blogs got started. I always looked at the type of hobbies I pursued as having a dual purpose. First of all, I really enjoyed them and secondly I viewed them as a type of retirement investing since I knew I would sell them prior to retirement and, best of all, I even made a profit on them.

Max said...

Somewhat related to pinching pennies in retirement: I've expanded our "victory garden" to the point where my wife and I are pretty much self-sufficient in vegetables and fruit from May-Oct. We also have enough to share with our unemployed school teacher daughter and a couple of the neighbors. Although not much, I would guess the annualized saving would be $1000+/year. No fear of salmonella or e coli either!

Stephen Drone said...

Interesting notes on choosing hobbies that will help you fund retirement.

The primary reason I started collecting baseball cards was the enjoyment; a reason in the back of my mind was making money in retirement. yeah, even that far back I wanted to have tons of cash in retirement, though I assumed that if I had a son I'd hand the cards over to him if he liked baseball.

BUT WAIT there's a black swan! Topps and Upper Deck have screwed up the baseball card industry so that my cards are worth significantly less.

Just another example I wanted to throw in there.

Jake P said...

Precisely why I want to retire on a sailboat rather than a motor yacht--minimal gas expense and it keeps the wife away from the mall :)

(I need to get more skilled at fishing, though, which can be expensive in its own right if you're not careful.)

Anonymous said...

Another excellent post on "retirement" tribulations.

I have alwats agreed with your observation, Roger, that one should never truly "retire", but instead morph into other ventures that provide satisfaction - and income.

Taking it a step farther, I believe that everyone should have as a goal receiving income from multiple and diverse streams. Depending on just stocks, or the vagaries of a "hobby" pose enhanced risk.

I was lucky years ago to figure that out. As I count, my wife and I have eight separate income streams, including two pensions that include health care to a degree.

Not included is another important part of retirement planning: marrying well the first time.

Also, our children are all gainfully employed,living away from home and living principled lives. This really helps!

So far, so good.

Roger Nusbaum said...

i'm on board with staying happily married but i dont discount luck in that part of the equation.

your comment about adult children is interesting. it seems like when i was in my 30s (44 now) i heard about a lot more people my age having trouble getting started in life being bogged down in some cases by serious problems. not sure if my generation is worse off than past generations in that regard, better off or the same but if worse off then many people who did not starting building until their 40s which will put them behind in their 60s and 70s.

richard said...

The trick is to have a hobby that makes money. I own a Corvette restoration shop and from time to time I help a customer in his late 60's that restores two cars a year in his garage and then sells them at the Scottsdale, Barrett-Jackson auction. He generally makes 35 to 50K annually on his hobby. Even though this is most likely a $10 a hour payoff, since car restoration is so labor intensive, it is a fun hobby that he loves.

Richard

G Cook said...

Bill Gross recently forecasted that 4-5% returns for bonds and stocks would be the new normal. In a 4-5% world, a 4% withdrawal rate will no longer be "safe". See this blog.

http://easyretirementinvesting.com/2010/08/a-flexible-withdrawal-strategy-for-the-new-normal/

Anonymous said...

Love your blog and check in frequently. Enjoy reading retirement stuff. 2 things I struggle with. First, although I have no debt, live modestly, and have saved fair amount despite market hits x 2, is it going to be worth it in the end? I know the answer is yes, but I see a lot of people take a downturn in health near retirement. Not promoting over zealous spending in working years but as Ferris Bueller says,"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” Second, when does quality of life start to diminish to point where who cares how much money you have. I take care of a lot of 80 year olds and majority of them are more concerned with what there going to eat for dinner than how much money they have. I’m thinking I don’t care if I’m out of money by 80, if I make it- just bring me a hot dog and some soup.
You have probably covered this and I missed it but just a couple things I ponder at times.

Roger Nusbaum said...

anon 7:13 great points/questions that i have covered before.

A few things here. First is a saying but I believe in it; it is about the journey not the destination.

I can only relate how we try to live our lives. We have built a very low stress life we love; self employed work at home, hike a lot, try to improve our home ourselves, take a few trips on the cheap, go to the gym every day. The things we enjoy are not costly. This allows us to save a very high percentage of what we make (no debt helps). living below your means does not mean depriving yourself.

As far as your comments about 80 year olds I don't doubt your experience at all but the flip side is that I responded to a wildfire Monday night and the guy driving our water tender is 79 (backhoe neighbor). My father is 84, lives at the beach, walks everywhere, stays very engaged mentally and when he visits us at 7000 feet has no problem acclimating.

today we know more about diet and exercise and so have a better chance of being able to be fit and active at 80.

Anonymous said...

Thanks and good points. No doubt I am biased given my profession to the sicker 80 year olds. Also I admit I am seeing a lot more people in their 90s then I did 10 yrs ago. And, that is awesome about your dad. But I do think the idea that at some point, even though you may be alive, your odds of enjoying retirement are less. I just struggle with that a little. For me, my dad died in early 70s from MS complications and my mom is in a lock down dementia unit at age 74. I guess I’m just looking at that thinking yikes! So the saying-work to live, don’t live to work (my version of the journey). Thanks again for all your great stuff. Steve

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