Wikinvest Wire

Friday, May 14, 2010

"Cue Talk Of 'Robustness'"

Nassim Taleb has popped up on the radar in the last couple of days as some have opined that a trade for 50,000 options by Universa, a fund that Taleb advises in some capacity, may have contributed to the Crash of 2:45 pm. The WSJ picked this up and FT Alphaville poked some fun at the whole thing, the title for this post came from the Alphaville post.

Barry Ritholtz posted a video from Taleb's recent appearance on Bloomberg, after the Crash of 2:45 pm, that I reposted yesterday. Taleb was asked about whether a trade by Universa was responsible. He sort of denied it and then said that focusing on what caused a blip on a given day is the wrong focus and he is correct. His analogy was to focus on the camel's back not the straw.

Below are a few comments I pulled out of the interview that I wanted to comment on.

He said we've learned nothing from the crisis thus far and that the system is now more fragile; we have increased moral hazard. Have we really increased moral hazard and dumb behavior? Well what do you think will happen the next time financial system faces a meltdown? My take is that they won't bailout banks from a repeat of 2008 but there will never be a repeat of 2008. In the next crisis, and there will be another one at some point, financial institutions will have taken way too much risk because of completely different factors than in 2008 and they will "have to" bail them out. And this of course could be some delayed result from the fix being implemented now. Is there anyone outside of Washington DC who doesn't realize this?

Next up was a comment that black swan events depend on the viewpoint of the person. He said that thanksgiving is a black swan for the turkey (this is a reference from his book) but not the butcher. I would not focus too much on predicting what the next black swan will be (this would seem to be impossible by definition and the term has probably become over used) and instead focus on what the next bad black swan event will do to the market and probably your portfolio. Some sort of lightning fast crash, although it probably won't happen again, is obviously the worst time to sell. I try to have a couple of things that could go up in the face of a longer term panic down, longer than 20 minutes, but the crucial thing is to recognize a panic when it comes. In the last few years that I've had this site I almost always put a post in the middle of it, as I did last Thursday noting the panic hopefully with a little humor.

The other interesting thing to me, but there was more so watch the video, was what he thinks people should hold. He said the stock market is a hoax. He would also avoid long treasuries which is not an off the wall idea by any means. He would hold a collection of metals, he was not specific which is why he used the word collection. If I understood correctly he would also own soft or ag commodities and farmland which he differentiated from real estate.

Comments like the stock market is a hoax are over the top, probably, but can be a catalyst for thinking about asset allocation and the volatility of the asset classes which is always useful even if you disagree with the conclusions that Taleb, or anyone else, draws.

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

RW,
I like to ask an additional question if I may. When do you consider shorting a stock.
Thanks so much for your answer. As allways top quality on your answers.
Jeff from Milan, Italy

Rhianni32 said...

The stock market is a hoax comment in the video struck me as a bit odd especially if he/his firm is actively taking part in the hoax.
His advice also seemed odd. No stock, no bonds, no real estate. Ok well there isn't much more for the common investor who doesn't ready financial blogs.

I chuckled at the turkey black swan example.

Paul said...

without sounding like Danny Noonan, I've often considered the equities market a hoax...ok, maybe more fearful that investors will loose confidence that the equities markets are "fair." After the 2:45 crash, the equities markets *may* appear to be rigged or at least slanted to those with better information. This is NOT healthy and I fear more and more people will pull away from the equity markets making it difficult to consistently find return. Thoughts?

Roger Nusbaum said...

Rhianni32 I think NNT would say that Universa is trying to exploit the hoax as opposed to participating in it.

Paul, my first reaction to your comment is gunga galunga (my rough memory of a Carl Spackler quote) I believe damage was done ten years ago when the market cut in half and all those IPOs went bust.

I believe the extent to which the public distrusts the industry ebbs and flows but is always an issue.

Anonymous said...

Fear, fear, and more fear.

Perfect for the market to climb a wall of worry.

SEG

RW said...

I laughed at Taleb's turkey comment too but perception, where one stands, does indeed appear to be the issue: To a turkey, Thanksgiving is a real surprise but not for the butcher.

But Taleb is not the only one concerned about the fragility of the system and level of complexity. A trigger event -- trading error, a dead moth in the mainframe, whatever -- is interesting and possibly even useful but beside the point; the system puked, cost a lot of people a lot of money, but a partial recovery was made. Like a drunk trying to walk home it will happen again.

Jeff, that either requires a very long answer or a very short one: Guess which [g]. I normally short as a hedge to reduce volatility but will short as a trade if the setup is strongly contrary, a lot of folks on the other side do not perceive or refuse to accept the reality of a fundamental problem; e.g., mortgage REITs and builders in the 2007 RE crash. Shorting is normally more expensive and risky than long; analysis must be deep and discipline iron.

I'm on the road for the week; in this environment I will not leave any trades open so I'm clearing now. Ciao.

Roger Nusbaum said...

have a fun trip if that is appropriate to say

Anonymous said...

I believe what Taleb is saying about the equities market being a hoax is that the equity market is more often a casino than it is anything else. If you see it as a casino and your participation as gambling, you might be better off in the long run. IMHO of course.

Paul said...

You are right - this started 10+ years ago, however with the HF traders, dark pools, and flash crash, the cynicism of the equity markets today seems to be waning somewhat. Taleb and his theories gaining broader acceptance will seemingly accelerate this distrust. I keep invested, but cautious.

And on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.

Roger Nusbaum said...

"How about a little something for the effort?" lol

Stephen Drone said...

"longer than 20 minutes"

hahahah

Rhianni32 said...

Roger: Ah ok that makes a bit more sense.

chris said...

for the record,

Taleb didn't say to avoid treasuries --- as of February 3rd, he said that treasuries are a 'no brainer short' -- now that treasuries have rallied sharply since then, I guess he is just saying they are 'avoid'.

well, I see long-duration treasury ETFs up BIG again today - EDV and ZROZ etc....

ok, that is my 'reality-check' post of the day... :)

Anonymous said...

I don't think anyone answered Jeff from Milan's question as to when to consider shorting a stock.

Answer: when it is grossly overvalued.

Well, anybody have a better answer?

Of course, it helps if you have a few metrics to assist you in determining gross overvaluation.

Oh, wait. Nah. Skip the metrics. Buy a fast computer and put it in the same building as the stock exchange. Why work when you can make money the easy way. That's how it works today.

BillM

Anonymous said...

BillM & RW,
Thank You!
Jeff From Milan, Italy

anti-fragility said...

And now after the Flash Crash has been analysed much more, it looks like the Universa trade had little or nothing to do with it.

Regarding your first comment:
Listening to EconTalk "Zombie Economics with Quiggin" and various other sources, it seems like people do in general accept that bail-outs will be a part of life, and that banks simply have to pay in regulation for the insurance.

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