Wikinvest Wire

Tuesday, July 07, 2009

"Retired? Flex Your Investment Muscle"

Such was the title of this article on Yahoo Finance about trying to assess a proper asset allocation for someone in retirement. The author gives a reasonable "it depends," which it does, then goes on to talk about risk tolerance and concludes that a 25-40% range for equities would probably give a 70 year old a decent chance at keeping up with inflation.

I would come at this differently.

As difficult as this can be a big contributing factor must be how long you are likely to need the money to last. Someone that is 70 and whose parents are alive and who themselves are in good shape probably needs to plan on at least 30 years. At the low rate of price inflation from the last couple of decades it would take prices 15 years to go up 50%.


Think about that for a moment. A 65 year old couple with $6000 in monthly expenses might be getting $3000 in combined social security benefits and the other $3000 from their portfolio. If they have $700,000 in their portfolio they might appear to be in good shape today at a 5% withdrawal rate. Ten years from now assuming 3% price inflation the portfolio will need to generate $3914 per month. This means the portfolio would need to be at $913,000 in ten years, after ten years of monthly payments totaling $412,668 (figured using very simple math). So to have made the payments plus get to $913,000 the investor would have needed total growth of 89% over the ten years. Keep in mind this example doesn't take into account expensive one off events like a major house repair or family event that must be paid for.

Sticking with simplistic math the 89% means the portfolio needs to average 8.9% per year. This raises all sorts of issues. First if you need to average 8.9% per year, and you are very healthy and your parents are alive then how confident are you about only 40% in equities? The example assumes 3% price inflation for the next ten years, could you take someone to the hole on that one? As touched on above and in past blog posts there are always all sorts of one offs. In addition to the big ones above, there are smaller things like vet bills, car repairs, computers need to be upgraded (look at your Quicken for the last year, what sort of one offs do you see?). I haven't even touched on any sort of unforeseen doomsday for social security.

From a more predictable viewpoint the stock market, including prudent foreign exposure, will not go up 8.9% per year for then next ten years. It might average that but the path to whatever number will be much lumpier than the exact same number 10 years in a row. A year with a 10% decline in the market and normal 4-5% withdrawal plus paying for a plumbing catastrophe all occurring in year two and all of a sudden maybe 8.9% needs to bump up a little.



The building block here is longevity combined with things being a little bumpier in the next few years, in terms of things like inflation. Yes everyone needs to sleep at night but as I have said before if you are 80 years old and out of money, does it matter if it was because you were too aggressive versus too conservative? Either extreme has its downside.

We are headed up to Oregon today for a wedding over the weekend. We've never been so we are taking a couple of extra days to see some of the state. I'll blog and post pictures as we go. The pictures on this post are from the Bannie Fire which was the one from Sunday. The one is of yours truly and hopefully the other captures how laughably (well we can laugh now, anyway) steep the hill was. One interesting note, we used no water to put the fire out.

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

One possible answer would be an immediate annuity. For people that old, an equivalent initial withdrawal rate may be as high as 8% or 9%. The key would be to spend only a portion of the annuity payments, saving the rest for price inflation.

Anonymous said...

A family is like a business, it needs a CFO to monitor and have a cash flow, balance sheet and income statement..by this I mean someone needs to look at cash needs over a reasonable time horizons thinking both short term and long term, and do "what if" analysis. The same goes for the balance sheet and debt management...people who can't think like this should hire someone or be very cautious..I get nervious with rules of thumb or "average" when talking about people's lives (average simply says that half will be too conservative and half will be too aggressive). There have been some studies which show the worse period for retirees was not the great depression but the late 70's (aka Jimmy Carter's stagflation) where high inflation, high taxes and low returns destroyed retireees standard of living.

Stephen Drone said...

Holy crap - $6k in monthly expenses!

schtoonkmeyer said...

welcome to beautiful Oregon - I live here on the coast and love it. Where are you headed?

Roger Nusbaum said...

schtoonkmeyer,

we will be going to Mt Hood from the airport, tomorrow, astoria, the day after newport and the portland for the wedding stuff.

schtoonkmeyer said...

I live half way between Astoria and Newport - wave when you drive by! You will have a wonderful trip - all those places are fabulous.

Anonymous said...

an immediate annuity for grandpa that adjusts for inflation seems like a no brainer if great grandpa is still around. I would also point out that grandpa will be entering thh rocking chair years at some point - so a lot of the descretionary spending needs (wants?) simply won't be there at 90 or may even 80

- snow skiing at 90 or spending the day in the sun at the beach - not likely - the effect of inflation on $0 is not that much over time :)

Anonymous said...

We're not too far off from the hypothetical couple that Roger profiles here. We live comfortably, though far from extravagently. Madoff would have turned us down. For us, $6000 is high but not horribly off the mark, before taxes. Without question, it's the one-offs that kill the budget.

I had high hopes for the article on Yahoo but found it to be sophomoric and almost useless. The ones from Fidelity usually are. Roger's reality check is far more practical.

If one-offs kill our budget, lumpy returns ravage our account. Navigating the two is nearly impossible to plan for, so we're continually reading, adjusting, and, for now, enjoying deflation. Thankfully, Roger pulled his punch about finding part time work in this post :)

Anonymous said...

Roger - we are at the 200 day simple moving average what is one to do?

Stephen Drone said...

Haha.

These post are getting to be like Michael Scott and "That's what SHE said!"

Bill B said...

SD, I agree, they're quite tiresome, but it does drive home the point that simply trading crossovers isn't as simple as it sounds.

AAlan said...

Don't miss Crater Lake.

I wonder about that $6K in monthly expenses, too. That's living pretty high on the food chain. And if their expenses are that high when they are 65, what happens when one or both become disabled and need extra care?

Instead of worrying about asset allocation, which is guesswork at best, I would look at reducing expenses for the long haul.

JMHO

Anonymous said...

$6000, before or after taxes? We are 73+75, get about 2666/mo before tax and after medicare deduction. Until 2009, had 85% of SS taxed at 28%. Now no earned income except a little dividend-interest and the required distribution, about 2500/mo before taxes. Will not take the RMD in 2009 but using after tax income. Not a pretty sight when all is said and done. Those of you still earning income, plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Stephen Drone said...

Expenses. Not income.

Anonymous said...

$6K/month is not that much in a high cost of living area, e.g. San Francisco Bay Area.

Anonymous said...

Why would anyone retire in America?

America has no culture, high taxes, fat people, and religious retards.

You can retire in Mexico, Panama, Spain, or a zillon other places.

Anonymous said...

SD - Expenses are paid with income after taxes.

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