Wikinvest Wire

Friday, November 14, 2008

Friday Housekeeping

First item; Yesterday I mentioned a risk I think I see of a huge rally that ends up drawing people in too late who end up panic selling potentially doubling their losses from the current bear market.

Regardless of whether this is the depression, the end of the US financial system or something worse the path down has been remarkably fast and all encompassing. Some sort of massive retracement, even if short lived, should not be a shock.

Regardless of whether yesterday was short covering or natural buyers coming in I believe it speaks to a willingness (hopefulness?) to take them higher very quickly. I would not take this as a prediction but more something to think about in terms of what you would or would not do in case it happens.

Second item; There have been a few sour comments left in the last few days ranging from disagreeing with my approach (cool) to questioning my integrity (not cool) to name calling (not cool). There was quite a bit of this in the summer of 2007 when I wrote a lot about a bear market coming. For the last few weeks I've been writing about preparing to go back in and the couple of small steps I've taken in that direction. Is this an indicator of some sort? That would be nice.

One particularly frustrated reader said I was a trader speculating on the future. A couple of days ago someone said what I do is overly complex. I'm certainly not going to change someones mind about those sorts of things. I believe in and write about active portfolio management. In active management decisions get made and in time some of those decisions are correct and some are incorrect. Be right more often and you probably end up with a good result.

In this regard I've chronicled how I got defensive and now am chronicling the slow path to getting back in after a huge decline in the market. In a way this could be speculation because getting defensive could have turned out to be wrong and doing a little buying down here could turn out to be wrong, we won't know for a while.

In terms of overly complex it might be more correct to say a lot of moving parts. I build portfolios sector by sector and I follow a lot of things to try to make decisions. This isn't right for everyone but an idea I have tried to convey numerous times is to take a little process from me, take a little from other places and create your own process.

Last item; A theory of mine (can't really claim originality) made its way onto a page at the Bogleheads site. I don't know much about Bogleheads but I think they are devoted to passive investing, I believe in active management, they have a very popular site where people write about passive investing "inspired by Jack Bogle." If passive investing is set forget and rebalance then I'm not sure what there is to write about. Not a knock, I really am not sure.

The theory of mine that came up was my opinion that EAFE is inferior to investing at the country level because of EAFE's heavy weighting to the UK and Japan and the blending away various attributes of the countries you might want to own. I doubt too many members of Bogleheads have ever read my stuff (why would they, they're passive I'm active) so there was a fair bit of context missing along with some misunderstanding of my point.

The first bit of context is that I think picking countries with different economic attributes adds value over the entire stock market cycle in terms of providing better returns during the bull phase and rolling over and recovering at different points than the US which potentially smooths out the ride better than EAFE which has about 0.90 correlation to the US and turned down within in a couple of weeks of the US in October 2007. Brazil and Norway on the other hand peaked 8-9 months after the US.

Someone posted as Rick Ferri saying that "
It is basically impossible to predict where the US equity market is going, let alone any individual foreign market. So, I don't see how picking individual countries is a wise decision." I serve on an ETF advisory panel for IMN with a Rick Ferri, not sure if it is the same guy or not. Whoever this Rick Ferri is, he appears to be an indexer so would be inclined to disagree with someone who believes in active management.

His comment misses my point which I made above. Further it is not about picking what country is hot now or is the most own for the next six months. Australia has a different type of economy than the US. It stands to reason that a different type of economy offers better potential for diversification than a country that is very similar to the US like the UK. Do the legwork yourself. Compare various countries over time and decide for yourself. You may agree that there is more long term benefit going to the country level or you may not. You know what I think, you know what the indexers think, so decide for yourself.

One poster at Bogleheads takes issue with the fact that I am writing about something "
new and different from what's been proposed before." So I guess he's giving me credit for originality. I do believe things evolve in the investing world and I believe it useful to try to stay out in front of that.

I am not a fan of indexing, despite the mountain of data they have to support the argument, because I do not believe in letting my account go down as much as the market does during the bear phase without trying to protect the portfolio. This website has been around long enough for anyone who cares to look back and draw their own conclusion about whether it has worked or not.

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

I like your blog a lot and have been reading it for at least a couple of years. I disagree with you a lot, but have never questioned your integrity and I question the integrity of lots of market prognosticators. In fact one of the reasons I like your site so much is that I know I am getting honest view point not that I agree with your view point.

As far as name calling goes I think that is consistent with the market volatility and bottoming process that is occurring. If you loose half your life's savings and sell there is no Mr. Market to yell at. The fact you constantly council not to panic sell and are not responsible does not matter. Your blog exist and Mr. Market does not so venting on your blog is a viable option to jumping out the window.

Bill B said...

I think I've discovered a new indicator. The level of vitriol from readers who disagree with Roger's future projection indicates how likely the move is to be.

I'm with anon 6:40, I agree with you on most things and truly appreciate your perspective and the "look over the shoulder", but don't necessarily agree with your particular active strategy because my take is that statistically the 200 DMA provides no edge. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It does seem to smooth out volatility, which as we can clearly see would make a lot more folks sleep better at night.

I do agree with some active management though. I just haven't found exactly what works for me yet.

Roger Nusbaum said...

if i wasn't clear disagreement is very productive, i take the comments mentioned as a sign of exhaustion triggered by emotion for days on end.

i caught a minute or two of a behavioral guy saying that the stress caused by this sort of thing makes people sick (cancer sick) so while some folks are getting overly worked up hopefully you are not. keep exercising or start exercising if you don't.

s_baghaii said...

I typically watch your videos during breakfast, and my husband asked me why. I told him that I loved the big dogs wandering around while you tried to explain what was going on.

As time went on, I appreciated the way you calmly developed your strategy and the helpfulness of your commenters.

The other day when you said that this was no longer what you considered a normal bear market, I thought "Wow! This is serious!" because I knew you wouldn't say that lightly.

Anonymous said...

Roger - you will always have "haters" as the kids say. People want investments to be a science because they feel comfort in the hard numbers. Really it is philosophical with science thrown on at the end...there is no answer that people can wrap their hands around so the ignorant lash out rather try to better themselves and the people around them. I do agree with much of what you say because it makes logical sense, although I do not index. There are many issues, the least being that the financial world is filled with "ethically challenged" people that have hurt many individuals. There is also an ego thing surrounding money. Both of these lead people to self invest which is not an easy thing to do whne you arent focusing on it 12 hours a day. You are honest, straight forward and logical. If people can't see that, than they arent a good judge of character or investments. thanks for the blog.

Anonymous said...

I enjoy your blog Roger...I think
many older people are stressed out
to the point of "sick"...(if you don't mind) it's better they take
it out on the internet instead of their wife and kids. In other words, it's not about you:-)
Liquor sales are up 30% and we
have at least all of next year
to deal with this mess.

"doing a little buying down here could turn out to be wrong"
yup, this could be the up of the future...
take care and thanx again

JEC49 said...

Ditto on the positive comments left this morning.

I don't recall when so many have agreed that the Oct. 10 low is the bottom. Seems like everybody decided to buy when the market dropped below 8000 because they didn't want to get left behind. They weren't waiting for the number to get to 7882. 7974 was good enough. That's an awful lot of investors chomping at the bit. (me included)

But is all of the bad news to come priced into the market? I just don't think so.

Cynthia said...

Hey Roger:

I really appreciate your honesty about your process and find your blog very helpful.

I'm a psychiatrist and see your job much as my own. I know the basic patterns diseases tend to fit but I also know that there are exceptions to all the rules and times that the situation is completely off the map. The markets are "off the map" right now and you make it clear no body really knows what to do. I like your honesty. Keep doing what you do!
Cynthia

Anonymous said...

Roger, I posted a link to this in the thread you mentioned on bogleheads.org.

I disagree with your active management, but enjoy reading about your investment themes and the new areas of investment you find.

Stephen Drone said...

1. While I see your point about indexing going down as much as the market, theory would have it that, if you allocate correctly - including bonds - you WON'T go down as much as the market. Asset allocation smoothes out the ride.

2. I'm generally an indexer, and I agree with your point about Japan being such a big part of EAFE index. Wisdomtree's DWM is an alternative; though I'm staying away from Wisdomtree for now, DWM has a much smaller Japan allocation. Which probably has a lot to do with why they've "beaten EAFE."

6 of 1, half a dozen of the other.

Anonymous said...

I'm largely an indexer as well, whose learning to take a more active role in risk management, i.e. protecting myself against big downside moves. That's one reason I enjoy reading your blog, you're very generous in sharing how you do this. I do use active management in a few areas, large cap value for example.
Rick Ferri is well known on bogleheads and consistently gives good advice to indexers. I've read his books - he doesn't necessarily recommend holding the entire EAFE. Rather his strategy is to index separately between europe (non-UK), UK, asia-pacific (non-Japan), Japan, and emerging mkts., and maintain specific allocations of each. Not the same as your active approach I agree, but he does present an argument for why this is likely to outperform straight EAFE buy and hold.

Anonymous said...

I have used several mutual fund managers for several years who I believe are better than any index fund. I don't try and second guess them and feel they are making the best decision on my behalf.I am a very patient investor. If you can show me an index that has done better over past 5-10 years, please tell me.
Clyde S. McGregor OAKBX
Jean-Marie Eveillard- SGENX & SGOVX
Steven C. Leuthold-LCORX
Rudolph-Riad Younes - BJBIX
Michael J. Cuggino - PRPFX
Steven Romick - FPACX
Charles M. Royce- RYPRX

Ron

70dzboy said...

Roger,
Keep doing what you're doing! I especially like your comment "take a little process from me, take a little from other places and create your own process". We need to be aware of our own emotions, risk tolerance and life situation and make adjustments accordingly. These are unprecedented times and every move in our portfolio needs to be thought out in advance. The last few weeks have turned me into a trader with a portion of my portfolio taking advantage of 10%+ moves in both directions. The point is I would buy more of a similiar asset class on a further 10% down, and would sell and buy a different asset class on a 10% up or leave it in cash. At some point, the market will keep going up, but I will not need to chase anything because my whole process will been thought out in advance. Thanks again by helping us all learn to figure out our own process.
70dzboy

Anonymous said...

Roger -

I really enjoy reading your blog. In fact, yours is the only one I read regularly. You seem to be a very curious mammal and one who understands that life is a lot of gray area and not so much "black and white".

That being said, I do wish that your pieces were more matter-of-fact or you at least took a stronger stand. You qualify things so much that it often waters down the point you seem to be trying to make. I understand you don't want to mislead or harm people, but you do have expertise and it would be nice to get a more clear message.

winslow said...

I believe Roger does send a clear message............
this stuff is not easy...can't be predicted with accuracy...develop your own system you are comfortable with

Roger, I like your perspective. It helps me develop what I am doing. This is not a game with rules, but discipline does help.

Carl Spanoghe said...

I just discovered your blog a few days ago, and its really helping me figure out my own strategy (i'm a relatively new investor).

If indexers and passive investors do so in order to attain maximum diversity at the lowest cost, why would they slam you for saying that an index is over-weighted in something? It seems that they should take your advice and add more diversity by adding more countries to their portfolio and/or find a different fund.

Thanks for the good writings :)

Anonymous said...

Roger. There is an interesting short article on The Big Picture about the 200 day moving average indicator. Here is the link:
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/the-lost-decade/
Essentially, the author says buy/sell when the market moves over/under the 200 day +/- 5% band. Thoughts? Thanks, JCarr

JEC49 said...

How about oil?

There is quite a disconnect between DIG & DUG. I add them together to get a relative position. On a given day last month the DIG was 26.03 and the DUG was 54.49 for a total of 80.52. Today the DIG & DUG are approx. 30.46 & 38.00 for a total of 68.46.
Does anyone find that surprising?

Roger Nusbaum said...

crazy day. we had a crazy crazy call with the FD this morning that messed up the whole day, I'm caught up now.

fortunately i had a cell signal where we were so I wasn't really out of touch with the market.

thanks for the kind words but was not looking to turn this into a slurp fest, i think people readers can benefit by knowing some people are letting their emotions take over.

SD i meant the equity portion, sorry--poorly worded.

indexing can work, active managers in OEF can work, it is all fair game but they all have drawbacks. whatever you do, be objective enough to know there are drawbacks and be smart enough to know what they are.

Re qualifying too much; fair criticsm.

re ablin's twist on 200 DMA; it is a tweak, it might be a superior tweak but I have said before there are plenty of these things out there (more than I know of) pick the one that makes sense for you.

dig dug-daily and imperfect daily at that.

i did not take the bogleheads as bashing me, they believe what they believe, not sure if that means they are not open to learning about other methods or not. the value in learning new, weighing it for yourself and then deciding yeah or nay makes the most sense but to each his own.

Anonymous said...

I left the first comment today, but now I would like to rant and blame roger for the volatility. Why can't he fix this? Trust me after several glasses of merlot on a Friday night I really want Roger to fix it or at least take the blame.

Roger Nusbaum said...

there was a bit on SNL when they did prime time shows on Thursday and a couple of times Kenan Thompson came on as a financial expert and the tag line was fix it.

they need to fix IT

who?

they! they need to fix it!

what?

it, they need to fix it.

Anonymous said...

My favorite comment: Roger is a "curious mammal".

Must've been from a zoologist...

Keep poundin' the keys, Rog!

R in NY

Anonymous said...

I enjoy your blog, because it gives a rational perspective on the market. I do detect that you are starting to come over to the belief that this recession may not be like all others. In fact, it may truly be one of a kind, with much greater consequences than you had earlier thought.

I think you are right.

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