Yesterday I stumbled across one of the websites that focuses on the positives for Americans moving to other countries to seek out a better quality of life. The general tone is that the US is becoming more expensive and that the advantages of the US are not enough to justify the extra expense. In some places the healthcare is just as good, there are many expatriates in these places, the cost of living is much cheaper, the infrastructure is modern and there is plenty to do.
This sort of thing interests me on some level that a I can't quite figure out. I know I enjoy learning about other countries but I don't think I want to leave the US although buying a brand new 2500 square foot house on ten acres in Chile for $115 is intriguing, ok maybe $115 is a bit of an exaggeration:->>
From a slightly bigger picture view, I do not know how much, if at all, quality of life in the US will decline (I am open to this possibility but not the one to quantify it) but it is clear that quality of life will improve dramatically in other countries. Is there any value or logic in living in one of those types of places? What say you??
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20 comments:
Regarding a move to a less expensive country, like
Chile, is something one needs both eyes wide open before deciding. Having spent four years in the
interior of Mexico, i can tell you that the following
are areas that need to be considered:
1. Safety...car accidents related to bad roads and driving, infectious diseases like TB, bad water and food, etc.
2. Healthcare...unless you choose to live in Scandinavia, Germany, Japan, England, or Singapore, the availability of good healthcare for more complex diseases/injuries is very poor.
3. Legal issues: owning property, being treated, as
a foreigner like a second class citizen with poorer
legal protection, etc.
4. Language barriers
Otherwise, if one is young, healthy and unlikely to
experience accidents or illness, go for it.
Scoot
i was planning on posting about the subject this week after seeing a Karl Rove article discussing how wonderful our health-care is compared to the rest of the world.
I travel overseas once a year, have done so for couple of decades. I take my family we do all our health care needs. Wife's Lasek surgery, my annual check ups, kids dental work, etc...
I can tell you from first hand experience that quality of life overseas has surpassed that of the US and the gap is increasing. Health care in the US is not in the same league unless you are Karl Rove.
It is not about expense either. I got a sports injury last year, spent 6 hours waiting in the emergency room before i got 12 stitches. I was billed $1500. The emergency room experience was a disaster to say the least. This is not a poor neighborhood either.
The issue with where I travel is political stability not the quality of life. I imagine it is the same in most places.
I will put up a longer post some time after I finish doing my taxes... urghhh.
I have a family member seriously considering relocation to central America, possibly Panama. The family's dependent on the realty market (FL) for income, they don't see a future there, their health costs are increasing double-digit, and they're still 10 years from Medicare/Social Security. Their logic is to cash out home equity & use proceeds for an interim lifestyle as ex-pats. The alternative is to live with family members. B
Scoot, yeah I'd say Mexico is less attractive than a lot of other places in this context.
one point you make is of course crucial to this conversation which is to go spend a month or two there and really learn what's what.
Additionally selling out of the US is risky in that once you sell out you might not be able to get back in (kind of like the RE market in Cali at certain points). Maybe instead of sell out, sell down to a small condo, just so you can get back financially.
Sami, you'll post after you do your taxes? See you in august then? JK.
The emergency room situation is incredibly broken that much is true.
good dialogue
Roger,
Your topic interests me. Re, your "stumbled across one of the websites that focuses on the positives for Americans moving to other countries"--would you post a link to the site?
John
no.
just kidding
http://www.internationalliving.com/
I seriously looked into Costa Rica and other places a few years ago, but with the dollar dropping the cost of living here is starting to look more realistic.
The US still has many advantages compared to most places that are cheap to live. Other places like Norway, etc. may have many positive aspects, but are not cheap places to live.
With the dollar as cheap as it is I would reconsider leaving the US. The savings may not be worth the inconveniences anymore IMO.
maybe Norway if you win the lottery (there is an aritcle in WSJ about what to do if you win the lottery).
based on the comment this is clearly an interesting talking point.
my initial reaction is to wonder if buying a condo somewhere for $50,000-$75,000 (or cheaper elsewhere) as hedge of some sort.
The same still applies as far as go spend time there and make sure you would want to stay if you ever needed and the financial infrastructure can accommodate that, and there are quite a few places that are friendly in this regard..
Why move? We're well on our way to becoming a Third World... er.. a.. Emerging market. Besides the US might attack you.
I'm consider a move to Europe. I can work 1/2 as hard and be ahead.
Health care is way ahead of the USA and stress levels much lower because your living in a more civilized society.
Working as a wage slave in America and hoping some guy like Roger can save your retirement is crazy.
In Europe you can grow old with dignity and live a productive life well into your retirement.
ouch.
eastern europe offer plenty of attributes--from what i have read anyway, I;ve never been.
one other point about the US that occurred to me at the gym this afternoon is that you could move to South Dakota and get a house for less than $100k.
Clearly that is simply one extreme end of the spectrum but it makes the point. there are less expensive places in the US that have appeal, good healthcare and frappuchinos:-)
The other question is moving to tax havens - though if you are American you'll need to renounce your citizenship to get the benefits of low taxes. One thing I did think about in moving back to Australia is that in the long term I expect US taxes would rise and Australian taxes fall - the tax burden here on an individual is currently similar to a high tax US state like California currently, though wealthier investors probably pay lower taxes on investments due to the lack of an alternative minimum tax, no tax at all on retirement distributions (though 15% tax on contributions and earnings until retirement age), also no inheritance tax.
But I wouldn't rule out moving somewhere like Hong Kong if the opportunity came up :)
Anon 4:13, no offense, but the gist of Roger's original
comment was that one could live well in a less expensive country....maybe. You then go on to talk
about living in uber-expensive Europe. If I might
ask, just which country(s) have health care systems
for serious/complex diseases that is "far ahead" of ours. The only countries in the world that are on
par with ours are Australia, Canada (if you don'tmind rationing) the UK, and perhaps Scandinavia and Germany. Just see where most physicians go for
the latest and best medical training/technology...the
US. I have friends at Mayo here, and they are treating cases from the "superior" countries you
cite in Europe. It is easy to criticize when you
have limited experience, I guess.
I agree that our system needs fixing, but if that
ER visit had required advanced technology or
surgical treatment, be thankful you were in the US.
If we would just relieve the health care system of
its 12-20 million non-paying illegals from its rolls,
there would be an overnight change in waiting times and cost. In my opinion. Thanks Rog for an interesting post.
Scoot
US taxes likely to go up? nah, nah, nah you're way off.
boy i am in a mood today.
Boy, Roger, I think this is the kind of decision you have to make with your heart, not your head. I've had two colleagues retire abroad (Mexico and UK) but I've seen many more families torn apart by overseas postings of only 2 years. Don't underestimate the pull of family, friends, and American culture...even if it's just the freedom to buy dynamite.
We have lived in a realtively unusual period of history that has been without major world conflict due in large part to the benevolent nature of one remaining superpower - the U.S.
No country has utilized its power and resources for good (charity, world aid programs, governance, regional stability...the list is endless regardless of the political party in power) as has the United States - getting kicked in the teeth by the ungrateful including the progressive-communist zealots in the process.
Now this era is coming to a gradual conclusion, with the rise to China, the re-emergence of Russia, despot rogue states with WMDs and a neutered Europe. Our country is predictably undergoing a shift to the left, which has traditionally happened when the elites motivate the under-educated and/or ill informed stating that as victims they should ask what their country can do for them, not what they can do for their country.
Point being, those living in so-called safe havens (the Jews loved France in 1940, lots of folks prefer Latin America and the South Pacific ex-Hawaii now) will find their little worlds shattered when the United States will not or can not maintain order when no other coutry is able. And the next superpower to come, perhaps China, will "Tibet" what is now a heaven on earth to reside into quite the hell, with no respect for the rule of law and no mercy for the protestors.
International Living has a wealth of info.
Be aware though they have financial interest in everything they promote.
I've lived in Berlin, Germany, for many years and feel the quality of life is better than in the US.
As per health care, it is excellent and affordable here. The only difference that I see to the US is that American doctors charge much, much more. Perhaps that's good for them and draws a lot of good doctors to the States, but for the average family I prefer the German model, despite all its problems.
You have got to be kidding me. More fear to sell. Do any of you realize our population is growing 4x faster than Europe. We will have more younger people than China in 3 decades. That is something to ponder. The US will always change and innovate. Immigrants always on the rise be it from the south or the great west. And all trying to make a buck. That is what makes this country great. I am tired of all the bs I hear about how this country is going down the piss&r. Give it time. Since WW2 the divide in politics have never been greater. People actually hate the other side. This is out of hand. I am a republican and will be thinking about voting Obama just to get democrats to stop blaming everyone around them.
FYI:
The U.S. will have a population of young to say mid 30's of 12-15 million for each age group.
http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=US&out=s&ymax=300&submit=Submit+Query
While China during the same period will have 35 to 45 Million in each age group by comparison.
http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=CH&out=s&ymax=300&submit=Submit+Query
that is no B.S.
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